Two of the biggest beasts in the political jungle – the business secretary and his Tory shadow – slug it out in front of an audience of business leaders Lord Mandelson and Ken Clarke debate policy at British Chambers of Commerce. Photograph: Martin Argles The two comeback kings have been paired up in a kind pre-election sparring match by the British Chambers of Commerce. This Rumble in the Jungle takes place, not in a Kinshasa stadium, but in the more sedate surroundings of the Bafta HQ in Piccadilly. The match referee is the BBC's Jon Sopel. David Frost, the director general of the BCC, sets the scene: "At 12.45pm voters will finally get a chance to see two of the biggest players in British politics debate the future of UK business in an unrehearsed, authentic, and open fashion." "Unlike the debates arranged by the party leaders, our conference session has no strict rules, no coaches and no rehearsed sound bites. Lord Mandelson and Ken Clarke are going to have to make their case in a straightforward and spontaneous way, by answering direct questions from amongst BCC's 100,000 members who represent five million employees." Clarke refuses to be drawn on more details because he says the Tories don't yet have access to the Treasury books. "mandy says ken Clark trades too much on his past! Ken replies that at least he has a past he can trade on unlike mandy!" That got a big laugh. That's overstating it. There was a nice ding-dong between them on whether the Tories will cut spending by £30bn. But most of the rest seemed to be predictable warm words about changing the economy and being business friendly. "Who won?" someone in the press room asks. Neither of them really landed a blow on the other, a fellow hack replies. Lets hope the election campaign proper will produce more sparky debates. On this showing it looks set to be a real yawn.
Lord Mandelson v Kenneth Clarke – live debate
12pm
It's not exactly Frazier v Ali but it's the closest British politics gets to a heavyweight bout. In the red corner is Labour's veteran spinmeister Lord Mandelson, the business secretary. In the blue corner is his opposite number, the old Tory bruiser Kenneth Clarke.
12.40pm
The word in the press area is that this is the first debate of the election. There's a question about whether this is the first time Mandelson and Clarke have debated face to face in their current roles. We don't get this treat in Parliament of course because they sit in different houses.
12.48pm:
Ding, ding. Seconds out, round one. Mandelson is the first to speak. Sopel introduces him by saying he'll speak for five minutes. Mandelson says he was told to speak for 10 minutes and that could mean 15. He predicts that Clarke will call for cuts. Mandelson says we need "more honesty". The record of the Tory government of the 1980s was pretty disastrous for industry and manufacturing, but he admits that Labour has not got everything right.
12.52pm:
We need to do things differently, Mandelson admits. We need to cut burrowing but we need rebalance the economy." Ken and I are basically pro-business," Mandelson declares with a smile. The difference is we can't have the same business-as-usual attitude. Small business failure is half the rate of the last recession in the 1990s, Mandelson says. This shows "we got something right", he clutches at straws.
12.58pm:
We've got to strengthen our pro-enterprise culture, Mandelson says, but he claims it is already the best in Europe. He winds up his opening speech with lots more talk about "competitive edge".
1.02pm:
Clarke steps up. He quips that he likes the name of today's conference: "preparing for change". Business leaders in the audience chortle (they only gave Mandelson polite applause for his opening).
1.04pm:
"I've never heard such piffle in all my life," Clarke says of Mandelson's speech. He also attacks Mandelson's first stint as business secretary. Mandelson looks down at his notes, looking sour.
1.07pm:
Clarke reaches for his lapels like Rumpole of the Bailey, and puffs out his chest. "It is still not easy for small businesses to gain access to credit," he says. He then blasts the number of quangos, inspectorates and other "unnecessary burdens" under Labour. This all costs money, Clarke tells the audience.
1.13pm:
We need an economy based less on a mountain of debt, Clarke declares. Small and medium seized businesses are the key to the economy, he says. The next government has to be the most business-friendly government since the war, Clarke says. He sits down to warm applause.
1.15pm:
Now the debate proper, which will be conducted in armchairs like at a gentleman's club. Mandelson boasts of his "belt-tightening" in higher education and says the complaints from universities have been "hyped-up". He says such cuts will be worse under the Tories. We've already started cutting the deficit, he claims. But now is not the time for dramatic cuts.
1.19pm:
Clarke points out that public spending is due to rise by £30bn over the next year. He runs through how the Tories would cut back due to the "dire emergency" that we are in. He likens the UK to Greece and claims "we are on borrowed time".
1.26pm:
A budget is not something you can knock off for a TV programme, Clarke says after demands from Sopel for more details.
1.28pm:
The debate finally gets feisty. Mandelson pounces on Clarke's "frank" admission that he wants to tackle the planned £30bn increase in public spending. I didn't say that, says Clarke. Yes you did, says Mandelson. Sopel complains about Punch and Judy politics.
1.31pm:
Do you want to cut spending by £30bn, Sopel asks Clarke. He talks about a freeze on public sector pay. "You're waffling now," Mandelson says. "Stop heckling," says Sopel.
1.37pm:
John McGlynn, one of the businessmen in the audience, tweets a key exchange that I missed:
1.40pm:
The BA strike is unjustified, Mandelson says. Clarke brings up the 1970s. Labour has returned to being a wholly owned subsidiary of the trade unions, he claims. He also condemns the "extraordinary militancy" of the strike. Mandelson sucks the arm of his glasses.
1.46pm:
Clarke winds up by claiming that he has been more specific than Mandelson. He talks of changing the culture across Whitehall and promises more training and an emphasis on science. We need a "complete change", Clarke says. "We got to go back to basics," he adds.
1.47pm:
Mandelson says there has been a colossal catch-up in research and science under Labour. He admits we have got to be more smart and strategic in developing specific strengths of the economy.
1.50pm:
And that's it, Sopel winds up. The two old stagers wander off to applause. Sopel says there were some fantastic barbs flying between the two politicians.
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