The outcome of all this was revealed yesterday evening. The dilutive amendment was approved overwhelmingly, by 267 votes to 46 – and most of them Conservative votes, too. Tim Montgomerie has a full list of the thirty Tory MPs who backed Reckless and voted against the amendment. It includes names such as Douglas Carswell, David Davis, Zac Goldsmith and John Redwood. Although the result was, perhaps, predictable, the episode itself was instructive and worth dwelling on. Tory Eurospecticism is ever more cleaving in two http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13524601. On one side, the government and their supporters who are taking what they would describe as a "realistic" approach: standing up for the UK within the parameters they claim to have inherited. On the other, those who would see the government be more proactive and step outside the parameters altogether. With the markets convulsing at the thought of bail-outs for Spain and even Italy, this is a divide that is likely to solidify over coming weeks. I wonder whether the public's attitude will harden with it. Filed under: Bail out (16 more articles) , Conservatives (1641 more articles) , David Cameron (1210 more articles) , Euro (47 more articles) , Europe (387 more articles) ,Greece (20 more articles) , Ireland (158 more articles) , Portugal (13 more articles) ,Tory right (55 more articles) , UK politics (3708 more articles) Blogs: Martin Bright | Susan Hill | Alex Massie | Melanie Phillips | Faith Based |Cappuccino Culture Actions: Email to a friend | Permalink | Comments (35) | Subscribe Post this entry to: del.icio.us | Digg | Newsvine | NowPublic | RedditWednesday, 25th May 2011
The Tory divide over European bail-outs
PETER HOSKIN 9:09am
As Obama and Cameron played table tennis yesterday, a considerably more furious game was being waged between the government and Tory backbenchers. It related to a Parliamentary motion tabled by Mark Reckless – and described here – that sought to stem UK involvement in any future bailouts for eurozone countries. All well and good, you'd think, until a rival amendment percolated down from on high to dilute Reckless's proposals. This new amendment would only go so far as to "urge the Government to raise the issue of the [bailout mechanism] at the next meeting of the Council of Ministers of the European Council". The green benches were set for a violent back-and-forth 'tween one side and the other.
Wednesday, 25 May 2011
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Perry
May 25th, 2011 9:22amReport this commentSo that's 267 tail-wagging lap dogs then, grateful for a little scrap from the high table of the H2B.
Peter From Maidstone
May 25th, 2011 9:23amReport this commentI don't think people are Eurosceptic, I think they are growing to loath the EU. It is very telling that so few Conservatives were willing to vote for British interests against the EU. Very telling indeed. I think that we need to take this list of those 30 voting against the amendment and give them all the encouragement we can.
Without looking I can be 99.99999% certain that Helen Grant, MP voted whichever way she was instructed to, and without any care for the wellbeing of her constituents.
strapworld
May 25th, 2011 9:27amReport this commentWell the A listers have it the A listers have it!! Now one knows why Maude was put in charge!
We are slaves to the EU under Cameron and any party in the Houses of Parliament.
Hugo Chav
May 25th, 2011 9:28amReport this commentSoft on Europe.
Soft on Crime.
Soft on the Economy.
Soft on Defence.
Any decent opposition would get stuck in.
BTW, why is Cameron not being destroyed in the media for his badly conceived adventure in Libya? How much has it cost so far?
TomTom
May 25th, 2011 9:32amReport this commentIt is a fruitless exercise since these are not EuroZone Bailouts but simply a continuation of the Bank Welfare Programme known as "Lemon Socialism".
The financial systems are riddled with corruption as Gretchen Morgenson of the NYT makes clear. The favoured elites had a blowout party for a decade and now want taxpayers to clean up the mess. The Banks have parked their bad debts on the taxpayer and the ECB and now the States themselves look shaky.
Stop pumping credit into the hole and the cross-defaults bring down banks in London and Paris and Frankfurt....it is the nature of this frenzy that every Asset has been leveraged many times over and syndicated. This is a Systemic Fault of Decadent Capitalism and all politicians have done since 2000 is to shift the Day of Reckoning by upping the stakes on the gaming table
Robert Eve
May 25th, 2011 9:36amReport this commentNo sign of Claire Perry on the list.
Quelle surprise!!
Vulture
May 25th, 2011 9:37amReport this commentYet another demonstration of the yawning gulf widening between the Westminster village and the great British public.
As more and more people see the EU for what it really is: viz. a corrupt, undemocratic, inefficient corporate gravy train riding roughshod over the wishes and interest of all European people - our elected bosses (with the honourable exceptions of those who backed Reckless) bury their snouts - and our interests - deeper into the trough.
Deride UKIP as you may, they are the only party opposing the Gadarene swine. Dave is a willing slave to the Brussels machine.
startledcod
May 25th, 2011 9:44amReport this commentBy no stretch of the imagination are EU bailouts a conscience issue. Why don't MPs represent their constituents who, overwhelmingly, oppose bailouts?
normanc
May 25th, 2011 9:50amReport this commentLet's be honest, the 'realistic' approach is basically to go along with the EU in whatever dictates it lays down cf the last year (and previous 35).
And nothing wrong with that if that's what you want but let's not pretend there's any Euroscepticism involved in it.
More like let's not rock the boat-ism.
Fatbloke on tour
May 25th, 2011 9:52amReport this commentPH
Interesting to see DD out on patrol over this particular issue, could it be the start of something big?
I wonder what other little markers he will put down to set out his stall for the inevitable ConDemNation collapse?
With the economy in the doldrums when will Sniffy be shown the door?
3 million unemployed?
Double Dip Recession?
Deficit going up?
Could Dave the Rave survive the loss of his slightly more evil political twin?
BJ vs DD - Even I would buy a ticket.
General Zod
May 25th, 2011 9:54amReport this commentReckless is an idiot. He can't have spent long at UBS. He moved aroung the City, unable to make progress anywhere. He also tried his hand as a tax lawyer in the last few years before the election.
He should keep out of things he doesn't understand and stick to his drinking.
CuttingEdge
May 25th, 2011 10:02amReport this commentWatched the vote live yesterday on BBC Parliment as I was doing my daily sift through the news channel.
The opposition benches were virtually empty (trying to beat the ash cloud back to Scotland for the recess?). Which is why when the next bailout comes (as it inevitably will), if anyone in the Shadow Cabinet raises so much as a murmer he or she would make an absolute idiot of themself...well, more than usual if that were possible.
Axstane
May 25th, 2011 10:03amReport this commentThis is very disappointing. Parliament had, for once, a mechanism available to assert our independence from the European Empire. They surrendered.
We are now officially curry-munching surrender monkeys.
Fergus Pickering
May 25th, 2011 10:27amReport this commentVulture, youmay be right in what you say but don't drag the Great British Public into it. The GBP never think about the Eurozone at all. They are not interested. Perhaps they OUGHT to be, but they aren't. All the GBP know is that when they go abroad tey can use Euros all over the place. What's not to like?
Sir Everard Digby
May 25th, 2011 10:37amReport this commentHugo Chav
Soft on Europe.
Soft on Crime.
Soft on the Economy.
Soft on Defence.
Any decent opposition would get stuck in.
BTW, why is Cameron not being destroyed in the media for his badly conceived adventure in Libya? How much has it cost so far?
Wind back 18 months -were we not asking the same questions whne Labour were in power? Politics is a cartel.Nothing will be different.
Nicholas
May 25th, 2011 10:39amReport this commentTwo socialist trendies giving each other high fives. They both need to grow up. What a couple of immature plonkers. I suppose this little charade was to boost their cool, yoof image amongst Britain's brainwashed and brain dead young. For anyone who can remember statesmen with dignity, gravitas and maturity of thought and purpose, who would never dream of playing ping-pong when so many people in their country struggle to make ends meet and when their servicemen and women are being killed in foreign wars, a strong brown paper bag is needed.
Clowns performing in a circus.
Dogzzz
May 25th, 2011 10:43amReport this commentHugo Chav, Libya has cost approximately 250 million - 300 million pounds.
The tories are not being destroyed in the media for it because Libya's military is being weakened everyday. It may only take another 2 months or so for the Gaddafi regime to fall. Then the UK and France are in the front of the queue to sign lucrative oil deals with the new leaders, with whom we already have excellent relations.
Whether this military adventure is moral or ethical is another matter. At least it is 100% legal and supported by the UN and NATO and the EU and Parliament, which is more than can be said for the Iraq slaughter, which cost a damn site more with far less payback! Also Cameron did not have to resort to lying in order to justify this military intervention.
Justathought
May 25th, 2011 10:53amReport this commentJudging by todays interview of Vince Cable by the Guardian the bailout debate extends to the LibDems also. That there is debate is good but if it extends to stalemate in the coalition then it is highly damaging.
An example of the mixed messages from government can be seen with the FT interview today of David Lidington, Europe Minister. He is calling on financial services to step up efforts to
to explain why the City of London is vital for the whole of Europe. Meanwhile a quango (English Heritage) is calling for the listing of the 25 year old Broadgate development in the city. This intervention by EH is risking £1 billion of development and many thousands of jobs in the construction industry and financial services.
Clearly Vince Cable as Business Secretary takes his responsibilities for job creation and promotion of trade and industry seriously however the blocking of this major redevelopment by a quango is exactly the type of red tape and bureaucracy that hinders investment in the UK.
David Parker
May 25th, 2011 10:59amReport this commentIt was bad tactical thinking upon the part of Cameron's Whips to have arranged for a watered down wrecking amendment to be proposed by Chris Heaton-Harris, for, regardless of the outcome, nothing could have done more to confirm the public's opinion that Cameron will never stand up to Brussels and that his pre-election pretences of euroscepticism were nothing but a dishonest sham.
Doubtless he will claim that his hands were tied by his Lib-Dem partners, but it is notable that the wrecking amendment was not proposed by a Lib-Dem MP, but a Conservative one, dutifully followed by all but a few of those Conservative MPs who had also avowed their eurosceptism prior to their election.
Leaving aside the fact that Britain simply cannot afford to borrow even more billions to support successive bail outs of failed EU states, Cameron's lack of courage and integrity, over this issue alone, will go a long way to destroying any hope of a Conservative win in any future election.
oldtimer
May 25th, 2011 11:02amReport this commentThe public`s attitude will change when the bills arrive. By then it will be too late. There is also a good chance that by then the UK itself will join the other basket cases in the bond market dog house. It is also dawning on more and more people in Germany that they too are already in it (it being the Euro turd) up to their eyeballs.
The political consequences and fall out are unpredictable. The 30 MPs have done us all a public service by drawing attention to the issue.
Owen Morgan
May 25th, 2011 11:06amReport this comment"On one side, the government and their supporters who are taking what they would describe as a "realistic" approach: standing up for the UK within the parameters they claim to have inherited."
I think you meant "rolling over for the eu". There is precious little "standing up for the UK" being attempted by this government.
commentator
May 25th, 2011 11:07amReport this commentEven if Gaddafi goes (I suspect he will in the end), I think you are being naive about the ability of the UK and France to carve up Libyan oil rights. We don't live in 1890 any more. Libya is a deeply divided country with no love lost between the tribes of the west (Gaddafi's power base) and those of the east. And that is before we add Islamists to the mix....
There is no limit to the amount of taxpayers' money the Heir to Blair will spend on bailing out the Eurozone. How else is he expected to earn his post-Downing Street berth in Brussels? His trust fund however will not be contributing a cent.
Sres
May 25th, 2011 11:11amReport this comment@Doggz, indeed it would have only been 24 minutes instead of 45 minutes :)
Hexhamgeezer
May 25th, 2011 11:13amReport this comment'standing up for the UK within the parameters they claim to have inherited'
In other words, 'agree with and happy to be in coalition with Labour and LibDems'
Quisling bastards.
TomTom
May 25th, 2011 11:25amReport this comment"Hugo Chav, Libya has cost approximately 250 million - 300 million pounds."
Really ? Since each missile costs £1 million and rent for Italian airbases costs several million a month, and hotel bills for pilots cost Euros, and fuel costs real money; perhaps you can explain just what limited activity has taken place to spend ONLY £300 million in 2 months !
Publius
May 25th, 2011 11:29amReport this commentDavid Parker writes:
"nothing could have done more to confirm ... that Cameron will never stand up to Brussels and that his pre-election pretences of euroscepticism were nothing but a dishonest sham."
Agreed. This is shameful.
Liz Brown
May 25th, 2011 11:55amReport this commentThe continuing bailouts of the PIIGS is utter madness - why impoverish us all in a futile effort to damn the tide. We all know what the outcome is going to be so why delay the inevitable? the lunatics in charge are not going to be around when the shit hits the fan ( tho their pensions willl be protected) and we, with uor unprotected pensions will be left to sift through the ordure
Publius
May 25th, 2011 12:04pmReport this commentIf the Lib Dems want to do some tinkering with the constitution, then I suggest they do some conservative tinkering and restore the independence of parliament from the executive.
Quislings indeed.
Vulture
May 25th, 2011 12:17pmReport this comment@Fergus Pickering.
If you are right that the GBP don't give a damn about their country being given away to Europe why not put it to a test in a referendum?
And if you are right that they don't care they may well be made to care when we are dragged down in the coming tsunami of the Euro. This toytown currency invented by third rate politicians can only survive in northern Europe. In the PIGS it is a dead drachma.
denis cooper
May 25th, 2011 12:36pmReport this commentThe vote on the government-inspired wrecking amendment is at the bottom here:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm110524/debtext/110524-0002.htm
In the next section the motion as amended was approved without a division.
Publius
May 25th, 2011 1:03pmReport this commentLiz Brown writes:
"The continuing bailouts of the PIIGS is utter madness..." etc
Collective madness takes hold, and no one is permitted to gainsay it. Then, when the bubble burts, suddenly no one admits to having supported it and everyone claims they saw through it all along.
Just look at the end-to-boom-and-bust hysteria, or the rape of our town centres by crazed 1960s planners. And now, indeed, the Euro delusion.
Will no one speak up? Certainly not the you-sing-it-and-I'll-play-it lobby hacks.
Raffles
May 25th, 2011 1:12pmReport this commentNicholas, i think you should read Con Coughlin on the Torygraph website if you have not already.
Fergus Pickering
May 25th, 2011 1:14pmReport this commentYes, Vulture, I want a referendum. But don't be too sure you can win it.
lescam
May 25th, 2011 2:50pmReport this commentNicholas
May 25th, 2011 10:39am
"Two socialist trendies giving each other high fives. They both need to grow up. What a couple of immature plonkers".
Couldn't agree more. Can anyone imagine Churchill and Roosevelt, or Attlee and Truman, or MacMillan and Eisenhower, giving high-fives and acting like juveniles? In those days politicians had some dignity and sense of occasion, not posing with coffee mugs a la Blair, or taking their own personal paparazzi to the Garden of Remembrance, a la Brown and Cameron.
What I particularly hate is the firstname terms used by Cabinet Ministers. It was always "Tony" or "Gordon" and now "Dave". Where is the businesslike atmosphere of formal Mr.X and Mrs.Y? This country has gone to the dogs.
Marcher Baron
May 25th, 2011 7:54pmReport this commentI notice my MP didn't vote against the amendment, despite my asking him to support a block on EU bailouts. Definitely not voting for him again, then.