Friday, 11 November 2011
Dear All,
I agree entirely with Tim Congdon's assessment, below,with just one reservation:
I understand on good authority that the Vienna Convention on Treaties allows instant repeal of any Treaty which has been brought into being be deceit, fraud, subterfuge etc. If that does not apply to the ECA 1972 - and the 1975 Referendum that kept us in, what does it apply to?
To quote the late Jon Pertwee as a postman in a long ago radio series "What's it matter as long as you tear (it ) up?"
And incidentally, what could the others do if we did simply tear it up - would it be any worse, with any greater chance of success, than if we gave them time to dictate the terms of leaving and continued relations?
XXXXXXXXXX I
This is a personal view, not UKIP party policy - not confidential, but not to be misinterpreted
Dear Idris,
Many thanks for your e-mail.
The question of the mechanics of withdrawal is becoming a live one. As far as I am aware, UKIP does not have an agreed party policy and my views should not be misconstrued as being such a policy.
In my opinion the section in the Lisbon Treaty covering this subject is a trap. Of course, the Eurocrats want a period of negotiation in which they (and their associates in the UK's own bureaucracy) can confuse and complicate the issue, continue to write politicians' speeches, spend taxpayers' money etc. Of course. - & that is why a UK government committed to withdrawal must withdraw and stop paying the money, bang, straightaway, no ifs or buts.
Because we have a trade deficit with the EU, we are in a very strong bargaining position if the EU tries to be awkward. We should emphasize our commitment to free trade, including the free flow of goods & services from our EU neighbours etc. - & I have no trouble with that. But, if they are awkward with us, we have to let them know we can be awkward too. In the extreme we can slap 100% tariffs on imports of German cars and French perfumes. I wouldn't want this if it can be avoided and do want free trade, as far as possible. But the people in the Commission must be left in no doubt that - if they want to hurt us - we can EU commercial interests them much more and will do so.
The problem with the line I favour is the 1957 Vienna Treaty on the implementation of treaties, which the UK (rightly) has signed. Because 'we' (i.e., the pathetic people now governing us) have signed up to the Lisbon Treaty, abrupt withdrawal on my lines would breach the Lisbon Treaty etc. This is one reason - among a large number - why that drip Cameron's refusal to have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty was so important. Cast-iron Cameron, what a prat. Drip, prat, nitwit and closet Europhile. The man who thought America won the war in Britain's finest hour.
To be continued.
Let me emphasize that we should not have a big debate about this now - when the priority should be to explain to the British people how badly they have been betrayed by Westminster, Whitehall, the Establishment, etc. However, this e-mail is not confidential and may be freely circulated.
rgds,
Tim
Subject: How best to leave the EU - on our terms, not theirs. VE2 Day
Dear Tim,
re Bruges Group Conference
I was pleased to see that you and other panelists and indeed the audience agree with my view that the way to leave the EU is by UDI, followed by negotiation from a position of strength, not after 2 years delay uder Lisbon, on terms imposed by them on us.
The reason I asked that question, as when I said similar at the recent evening Bruges Group debate with Peter Hitchens and David Campbell Bannerman, is that I feel that this is a most important point to get across to the wider public, now as we seek to influence opinion polls and even more so in any referendum campaign.
I am frequently concerned by how many non-political-anoraks I talk to - even strongly eurosceptic ones - seem to be under the impression that leaving would put trade and/or "3.5m jobs" at risk. This to me implies that even those who really do wish to leave the EU in principle might, on the day, be too scared by that loss of trade fear to vote to do so.
There is surely no doubt that our enemies would push this for all they are worth - I think it was Glora dePerio on Question Time on the 2th of Oct who repeated that "3.5m jobs" nonsense - and we need to do everything we can to counter that sort of argument.
My concept of our depature - tell them we have left, tell them not to send any more bills because we will not pay them, tell them not to send any more laws because we won't obey them, and then dictate terms for the free trade they will be desparate to retain - went down well at the evening meeting and again today at the Conference when others said much the same thing. That in essence, coupled with basic information on the disparity in trade and the low maximum tariffs that WTO rules allow, seems to me to need to be put across at every opportunity so that the man in the street realises not only that we can do precisely that, but also that we would have the whip hand afterwards.
In other words not a case of "If we leave, what terms will they impose on us" but "When we leave, what terms we can impose on them"
Incidentally someone once told me that when told by a British politician that in this country "No parliament may bind its successor" a very senior EU politician, perhaps Delors went quite white as he realised the significance!
I agree completely of course about the dangers of even contemplating the Lisbon Treaty method of leaving - not least in my view and others' that once we had given notice and been excluded from the discussions they might not only seek harsh terms but even decide to remove the exit clause!
Or to quote Michael Shrimpton replying to the question "How can we leave the EU", who said "In style! With massed bands along the Mall" - or in my shorthand - VE2 day.
Sincerely
xxxxxxxxxxx IF
PS - not that I expect there to be a referendum on leaving, instead it will be force majeur, so obvious that we have to get out that not even Cameron and Co can resist.
Is it a coincidence that "folie de grandeur" is a French expression?
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