Why Protest About Green, But Not Tisdall or Ponting?
Iain Dale 3:45 PM
It was revealing that the first instinct of several Labour bloggers was not, as you might have expected, to engage with the issue of Damian Green's arrest. It was to attack my interpretation of it and the Conservative reaction. Yes, Luke Akehurst and Sunder Katwala, I'm talking about you.
Luke reckons I have double standards on the basis that I wouldn't have criticised the Thatcher government over the arrest of Sarah Tisdall or Clive Ponting in the mid 1980s. Sunder reckons I am inconsistent because in my post last night I said it was dangerous to comment on breaking news stories without knowing the full facts and then proceeded to do just that. Well, if that's the worst he can do...
But let me engage with Luke's argument, for it is one worth having. He says...
Labour commenters on previous threads have also adopted a similar argument, and even questioned what I would be saying if Margaret Thatcher or John Major had ordered the arrest of an Opposition politician in the 1980s or 1990s. That point falls flat on its face, because they didn't.
Anyway, back to Mr Akehurst. This is what I posted in his blog comments in response...
But not a bit of it. Luke, even now, hasn't expressed a scintilla of concern. But let me turn his question back on himself. Imagine if a Conservative government had been in power, and a Labour Opposition spokesman had done what Damian Green had done and was then arrested for it. Does anyone seriously believe that Luke Akehurst, Sunder Katwala and every other Labour blogger wouldn't be protesting on their blogs about it? Of course they would. I would also like to think that if a Conservative government charged a whistleblower that I too would protest about it.
One should also bear in mind that neither Tisdall or Ponting were Parliamentarians. Ponting leaked information to Tam Dalyell. No one even considered arresting him.
John Major had every opportunity to take action against Robin Cook and Gordon Brown in the 1990s and all those in the civil service of leaked to them on an almost weekly basis. The fact is that neither he, nor the Police would have done so or even thought about it.
I frankly have no idea whether Jacqui Smith knew about the arrests. Ken Clarke and Michael Howard find it inconceivable that she didn't. I do too. Surely to goodness it's something her Permanent Secretary would have at least informed her of, even if she wasn't actually consulted. I suppose the question is this: if she was informed prior to it happeneding, would she, or should she have issued an order preventing the arrest from happening? I would submit that if either Clarke or Howard had been Home Secretary they would have done just that.
As someone said in the comments, if she knew, it's a sign we live in an authoritarian state. If she didn't it's a further sign that we're moving towards a Police state.
Luke reckons I have double standards on the basis that I wouldn't have criticised the Thatcher government over the arrest of Sarah Tisdall or Clive Ponting in the mid 1980s. Sunder reckons I am inconsistent because in my post last night I said it was dangerous to comment on breaking news stories without knowing the full facts and then proceeded to do just that. Well, if that's the worst he can do...
But let me engage with Luke's argument, for it is one worth having. He says...
Iain Dale is already getting a bit self-righteous about Damian Green being arrested over alleged Home Office leaks. I wonder what position Iain took on civil servant Sarah Tisdall, jailed for 4 months for leaking documents, or civil servant Clive Ponting, charged but acquitted of a similar offence? Of course it was his hero Margaret Thatcher who ordered their prosecution, so I'm sure he thought it was justified, and didn't huff and puff like he is now.
Labour commenters on previous threads have also adopted a similar argument, and even questioned what I would be saying if Margaret Thatcher or John Major had ordered the arrest of an Opposition politician in the 1980s or 1990s. That point falls flat on its face, because they didn't.
Anyway, back to Mr Akehurst. This is what I posted in his blog comments in response...
Luke, You are quite right, I didn't comment on those two cases. I didn't have a blog at the time. And I suspect you are also right, that if I had, I might not have been so vociferous in defence of civil liberties. It was a very different age. That's no excuse, just an assessment of my thoughts at the time. I suspect at that time I would have had more trust in the state to do the right thing. I was probably in favour of ID cards too. But I have seen the light.
The thing that most concerns me is the deployment of counter terrorism police and the government's willingness to use counter terror legislation in a way they promised they never would. As I said in my original post, it is too early to make a full analysis, but surely you, like me, must be concerned at the way this has been done.
But not a bit of it. Luke, even now, hasn't expressed a scintilla of concern. But let me turn his question back on himself. Imagine if a Conservative government had been in power, and a Labour Opposition spokesman had done what Damian Green had done and was then arrested for it. Does anyone seriously believe that Luke Akehurst, Sunder Katwala and every other Labour blogger wouldn't be protesting on their blogs about it? Of course they would. I would also like to think that if a Conservative government charged a whistleblower that I too would protest about it.
One should also bear in mind that neither Tisdall or Ponting were Parliamentarians. Ponting leaked information to Tam Dalyell. No one even considered arresting him.
John Major had every opportunity to take action against Robin Cook and Gordon Brown in the 1990s and all those in the civil service of leaked to them on an almost weekly basis. The fact is that neither he, nor the Police would have done so or even thought about it.
I frankly have no idea whether Jacqui Smith knew about the arrests. Ken Clarke and Michael Howard find it inconceivable that she didn't. I do too. Surely to goodness it's something her Permanent Secretary would have at least informed her of, even if she wasn't actually consulted. I suppose the question is this: if she was informed prior to it happeneding, would she, or should she have issued an order preventing the arrest from happening? I would submit that if either Clarke or Howard had been Home Secretary they would have done just that.
As someone said in the comments, if she knew, it's a sign we live in an authoritarian state. If she didn't it's a further sign that we're moving towards a Police state.
Police Officer Found Not Guilty of Damian Green's "Crime"
Iain Dale 12:36 PM
This has just hit the wires. It relates to a simialr charge to the one on which Damian Green was held yesterday...
A former police officer, his son and two journalists have been cleared of charges in connection with the alleged leaking of confidential information. Det Sgt Mark Kearney, who was involved in the unrelated bugging of an Labour MP Sadiq Khan's prison visit earlier this year, was cleared of misconduct in public office. His son, Harry, and journalists Sally Murrer and Derek Webb were cleared of aiding and abetting misconduct.
The judge said the journalists' right to protect sources had been infringed. Prosecutor Sir Alan Green QC said the Crown has decided against seeking leave to appeal. Mr Kearney, who has since retired from Thames Valley police, had faced eight charges of misconduct in public office, three of which alleged he passed confidential information to Mr Webb and five of which related to Ms Murrer, his former lover.
One count of aiding and abetting misconduct in public office against Mr Kearney's son, Harry, a soldier, was also dropped. All four were formally acquitted at Kingston Crown Court. Mr Justice Southwell said the journalists were both entitled, under Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights, to protect their journalistic sources. But Thames Valley Police had flouted the convention by raiding Mr Webb's premises and authorising the bugging of Mr Kearney's car to discover if he was the source of the journalists' information, the court heard.
Damian Green: 15 Questions Which Need to Be Answered
Iain Dale 12:35 PM
1. As an Opposition Health and Trade & Industry Spokesman, Robin Cook built his parliamentary reputation as the receiver of leaked government documents. Why is Damian Green's behaviour any different to Robin Cook's?
2. Many journalists - David Hencke and Robert Peston being two examples - have built their journalistic reputations on being receivers of Whitehall leaks. Why is Damian Green's behaviour different to theirs to warrant an arrest?
3. Why are Ministers allowed to leak with impugnity? Why aren't they covered under the same law which was used to countenance Damian Green's arrest?
4. What did Jacqui Smith know and when did she know it?
5. Did she instigate the police investigation? If so, was it motivated by a desire to give a warning to future whistleblowers?
6. Why did the Serjeant at Arms lay lown like a puppy and have her tummy tickled by the Met?
7. Did she consult Mr Speaker before giving permission for the Met to search Damian Green's Commons office?
8. Why was Damian Green kept locked up for nine hours and reportedly only questioned after seven? (as was reported last night).
9. If the job of an Opposition spokesman is not to hold the government to account, then what exactly is it?
10. If Damian Green has been arrested, why haven't the journalists to whom he gave the stories been treated in the same manner?
11. What role did the security services play in this. Have they been monitoring Damian Green?
12. Why is the media not trumpeting the virtues of free speech and the rights of whistle blowers?
13. Why aren't Labour bloggers as outraged by Green's arrest as they would have been over Sarah Tisdall or Clive Ponting? (I will be doing a separate post on this later).
14. Why were counter terror police used to search Green's four home and office premises? He was arrested under a so-called Common Law, not an anti terror law, as I understand it.
15. Have the Police impounded Damian Green's various computers? If so, how is his constituency casework corresponded safeguarded? How can any MPs' constituents now believe that their casework is totally confidential?
2. Many journalists - David Hencke and Robert Peston being two examples - have built their journalistic reputations on being receivers of Whitehall leaks. Why is Damian Green's behaviour different to theirs to warrant an arrest?
3. Why are Ministers allowed to leak with impugnity? Why aren't they covered under the same law which was used to countenance Damian Green's arrest?
4. What did Jacqui Smith know and when did she know it?
5. Did she instigate the police investigation? If so, was it motivated by a desire to give a warning to future whistleblowers?
6. Why did the Serjeant at Arms lay lown like a puppy and have her tummy tickled by the Met?
7. Did she consult Mr Speaker before giving permission for the Met to search Damian Green's Commons office?
8. Why was Damian Green kept locked up for nine hours and reportedly only questioned after seven? (as was reported last night).
9. If the job of an Opposition spokesman is not to hold the government to account, then what exactly is it?
10. If Damian Green has been arrested, why haven't the journalists to whom he gave the stories been treated in the same manner?
11. What role did the security services play in this. Have they been monitoring Damian Green?
12. Why is the media not trumpeting the virtues of free speech and the rights of whistle blowers?
13. Why aren't Labour bloggers as outraged by Green's arrest as they would have been over Sarah Tisdall or Clive Ponting? (I will be doing a separate post on this later).
14. Why were counter terror police used to search Green's four home and office premises? He was arrested under a so-called Common Law, not an anti terror law, as I understand it.
15. Have the Police impounded Damian Green's various computers? If so, how is his constituency casework corresponded safeguarded? How can any MPs' constituents now believe that their casework is totally confidential?
Labels: Damian Green
Will George Osborne (and David Davis) Be Next?
Iain Dale 12:24 PM
I can't remember where I read it, but on Tuesday a political journalist speculated that the reason why George Osborne was so well prepared to give his excellent speech on Monday, was that his team had been leaked all the details of the PBR by someone in the Treasury. Nick Watt has some details HERE. What he doesn't mention is that a senior (non MP) Tory staffer was apparently spotted in St James's Park talking to a senior Treasury official. No crime in that (or at least you'd think so), but the Treasury's "mole-watch" machine has gone into overdrive.
If, indeed, a mole is found and exposed, can we expect the Shadow Chancellor to be arrested too?
And what about David Davis? Far be it from me to want to see the old knuckleduster behind bars, but with the number of leaks he had during his time as Shadow Home Secretary, surely at least one of them must fall under the same kind of legislation which led to the arrest of Damian Green? And if not, why not?
If, indeed, a mole is found and exposed, can we expect the Shadow Chancellor to be arrested too?
And what about David Davis? Far be it from me to want to see the old knuckleduster behind bars, but with the number of leaks he had during his time as Shadow Home Secretary, surely at least one of them must fall under the same kind of legislation which led to the arrest of Damian Green? And if not, why not?
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